Posts by The Rebel

33

Can the dead hear?

by AmyWatson916 in

the "what does the bible really teach?

" book says we cannot speak to the dead (page 64) and that the dead do not hear (page 58) but on page 68 the book has jesus talking to a dead man and the dead man apparently hearing and responding.

the same thing happens on page 69 when peter talks to a dead woman and the dead woman apparently hears and responds.

The Rebel

O.P :-

" Can the dead hear?

The words of a David Bowie song enter my head " We are the dead." I believe those words to be true. " We are the dead"

To clarify, I love my son and I love him to death. I hope my son will have a son/ daughter. If so my grandchildren are born, and I hope they grow to be teenagers. If I am around in their teenage years I will have become old and all sorts of physical and mental issues will confront me. Then I will die ....in my opinion this is the only death that can be heard.

The "How far have we come" thread

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

it took a while, but spiritually, emotionally and phycotically, i am now in a place where i can look at the stars and not see castles to be lived in.

instead i simply see a star in the sky and admire that star.

such thinking has made even my weekly grocery shopping an adventure.. in conclusion i wouldn't say i am in touch with your reality, nor need you be in touch with my reality.

The Rebel

It took a while, but spiritually, emotionally and phycotically, I am now in a place where I can look at the stars and not see castles to be lived in. Instead I simply see a star in the sky and admire that star. Such thinking has made even my weekly grocery shopping an adventure.

In conclusion I wouldn't say I am in touch with your reality, nor need you be in touch with my reality. What is important is that, we don't have to be in touch with each other's reality to be friends.

That's how far I have come.

5

The Milgram experiment.

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

the milligan experiment was an experiment on obidience to authoritive figures.

it's worth checking out, for in my opinion the experiment showed how even before the conscience is desenthitized, people will go to any length to gain approval from their authoritive figure.

this clarified to me why many become ministerial sevants, elders and company men, giving their life to an organisation they proudly refer to as mother..

The Rebel

pale-emperor that video you uploaded was very interesting. Thanks.

ruby456 , you make an interesting observation. I clarify your thought that elders in the organisation can assume leadership, but avoid legal accountability for their behavior towards others.

Understanding how easily presumably decent people can compromise their ethical values, and conscience has helped me to comprehend the danger of attaching oneself to any cause, or organisation.

5

The Milgram experiment.

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

the milligan experiment was an experiment on obidience to authoritive figures.

it's worth checking out, for in my opinion the experiment showed how even before the conscience is desenthitized, people will go to any length to gain approval from their authoritive figure.

this clarified to me why many become ministerial sevants, elders and company men, giving their life to an organisation they proudly refer to as mother..

The Rebel

The Milligan experiment was an experiment on obidience to authoritive figures. It's worth checking out, for In my opinion the experiment showed how even before the conscience is desenthitized, people will go to any length to gain approval from their authoritive figure. This clarified to me why many become ministerial sevants, elders and company men, giving their life to an organisation they proudly refer to as mother.

20

Re-read Animal Farm.

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

i was one of many witness children, who studied this book in english literature class.. having re-read it as an adult it addressed so many issues i have with the organisation.

including maniputive control, the re-writing of history etc etc.

so many of the characters in the book, resembled characters i have known in the organisation.. boxer- loyalty without questioning.. squeler- a character who doesn't care about truth, and uses rhetoric of language to twist truth.. clover-who silently questions decisions, but stays loyal.. if your young, or old i would suggest reading this small book, by george orwell.

The Rebel

I was one of many witness children, who studied this book in English Literature class.

Having re-read it as an adult it addressed so many issues I have with the organisation. Including maniputive control, the re-writing of history etc etc. So many of the characters in the book, resembled characters I have known in the organisation.

Boxer- loyalty without questioning.

Squeler- A character who doesn't care about truth, and uses rhetoric of language to twist truth.

Clover-Who silently questions decisions, but stays loyal.

If your young, or old I would suggest reading this small book, by George Orwell. It will in a wonderful way open your mind to how the organisation works, and the types of people that allow the organisation to function.

161

Good Morning!

by snowbird in

jw
friends

good morning, all.. it is good to be here.. thanks to all for your contributions.. love and blessings.

sylvia.

The Rebel

Good evening, "snowbird" and a forum full of O.Ps, to bring the devil out in you :-)

13

I have a big nose...

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

surprisingly whilst hating being born with this over large nose, women have fallen in love with my nose.

so with regards to look and charm, what i hated about my physical attributes, many women have found attractive.

anyway i just wanted to say what we find unattractive about ourselfs, doesn't necessarily mean others do.

The Rebel

Why I started this O.P, is that most of us feel we are unlovable, ugly, due to how we see ourselfs in the mirror. This has lead me to me have a pathetic personally trait, and is why most of my female friends are attractive in appearance. But the important attribute should be a persons heart... if i can't see that, I am ugly, ugly...and sadly I am very ugly, I am trying to correct this failing.

Having left the witness organisation, and thinking I am so enlightened, I realize as person I am still a rather pathetic and superficial person. So I am now trying to establish a rapport with all the wonderful people I meet, and not only interact with people that I find attractive.

This is my 1489 post, so I would also like everyone to know, I am still learning about being a man...I am still not any further forward from cult thinking than I thought I was. Leaving a cult is just another " reality" of life to accept.

How my wife has put up with me for 20 years, and how my 12,year old boy is my best friend shows i don't need to be the perfect husband, nor the perfect father ...i just need to be my imperfect self. So having a " big nose" and being insecure doesn't mean I am disadvantaged. And even if my wife left me and my child stopped loving me it isn't down to the size of my nose.

6

The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion"

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

when growing up in a "proper" j.ws household:-.

a) our moral opinions are conditioned by this environment and upbringing.. b) to hold to jws belief and moral opinions gives our life purpose.. c) what we believe we hold it to be true.. d) in terms of approval it can be difficult for the mind to accept logical evidence if our life is based on "truth" and " moral opinions" that conflict with our conscience.. anyway i am not sure where i am going with this o.p?.

i guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with jws has proven more challenging than i realized.

The Rebel

I find it very sad that a parent can say to a son/ daughter who is disfellowshipped:-

" look how much we sacrificed for you, when you were young, now you have forced us to shun you"

In my opinion a parent should always say :-

" You did what you feel right. We do and will always love you. We can not shun you"

However if a son/daughter is shunned by parents, they may find it hard to honestly say to a parent " You have done what you feel right, shun me, but I will always love you"

So too clarify my O.P. I am trying:-

A) To understand the factors that make people believe things.

B) To understand how a belief system can influence people to do things I think immoral.

And most importantly, self examination:-

C) In what circumstances am i still capable of living with " false" knowledge that will cloud my " moral attitude?

And my conclusion is we are all challenged in life. We will all believe " false" knowledge and we all do things " immoral" even to our own standards.

6

The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion"

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

when growing up in a "proper" j.ws household:-.

a) our moral opinions are conditioned by this environment and upbringing.. b) to hold to jws belief and moral opinions gives our life purpose.. c) what we believe we hold it to be true.. d) in terms of approval it can be difficult for the mind to accept logical evidence if our life is based on "truth" and " moral opinions" that conflict with our conscience.. anyway i am not sure where i am going with this o.p?.

i guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with jws has proven more challenging than i realized.

The Rebel

Hi Smiddy,

Smiddy :- "did I understand correctly your O.P?

The Rebel. I don't think you did?

My point is JWs morals are often based on what they believe is correct. Therefore their attitude and feelings to life are dictated by this belief. What they believe as good I believe to be bad. This is because I now have a totally different moral compass to when I was a witness. But trying to reason my moral disagreement with a witness is often futile, because we believe a different truth and therefore have different morals.

However my O.P was to :-

A) highlight that whilst I judge JWs as having a low moral standard, I can also sympathize how the indoctrination process has clouded their judgement.

B) When I trying reasoning with people and to change what I perceive as incorrect " truth" and " morals" I can understand why I am met with limited success. Culture, religion and various other factors can cloud a persons thinking.

6

The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion"

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

when growing up in a "proper" j.ws household:-.

a) our moral opinions are conditioned by this environment and upbringing.. b) to hold to jws belief and moral opinions gives our life purpose.. c) what we believe we hold it to be true.. d) in terms of approval it can be difficult for the mind to accept logical evidence if our life is based on "truth" and " moral opinions" that conflict with our conscience.. anyway i am not sure where i am going with this o.p?.

i guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with jws has proven more challenging than i realized.

The Rebel

When growing up in a "proper" J.ws household:-

A) Our moral opinions are conditioned by this environment and upbringing.

B) To hold to Jws belief and moral opinions gives our life purpose.

C) What we believe we hold it to be true.

D) In terms of approval it can be difficult for the mind to accept logical evidence if our life is based on "truth" and " moral opinions" that conflict with our conscience.

Anyway I am not sure where I am going with this O.P?

I guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with Jws has proven more challenging than I realized. In order to explain this I illustrated my point with those born in . But the same argument can be used on any convert of a belief or moral system.

This brings me back to my O.P " The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion" and by so doing I hope it leads to greater understanding of why debating with some posters can be futile.

My conclusion is it is not always that a poster is deliberately argumentative, when they fail to offer convincing reasons to justify a belief or moral opinion. The trick is to know when we are not going to convince someone on the validity of our argument.